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Author Topic: Help understanding furled leader formulas  (Read 3206 times)
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JDP
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Posts: 104


« on: February 07, 2012, 12:35:42 PM »

Hey all- I want to start making furled leaders for smallmouth bass fishing.  I've been doing some research and I understand the actual furlings process, but what I don't understand is how you evaluate how many loops you want, segments, et cetera.

I've been using these links to help me out-

http://www.hatchesmagazine.com/page/may2006/185

http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tips/furled/furled.html

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/articles/readerscast/2012/readerscast20120130_StevenMcGarthwaite.php

But I don't understand what loop count/amount of loops, or how to determine that for the type of leader you want.

Can you guys help me out?
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Flue
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Debt is dumb, cash is king. -D.R.


« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 02:12:17 PM »

I've made a few of these in months past. 

I think I was using 7/5/3 ratio (I'd have to look at my jig to remember for sure...which btw, your welcome to use if you want, will make close to a 6 foot (or a little more, again, I'll have to double check)  This gives you a 14/10/6 taper. 

Have made both thread and mono leaders.  The thread leaders only seem to be good for a season, was looking at some earlier this winter and they break way easy after a summer in the vest.  The 2lbs mono ones are still good. 

btw, I used the plans from Canerod.com

The more segments you have the longer and more tapered (my guess) your leader will end up being.  I'd like to make up to 9'/10' leaders and use a 7/5/3/1 (14/10/6/2 taper) for maybe chasing trout with streamers.

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JDP
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Posts: 104


« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 06:58:18 PM »

Ok cool.

So I've managed to figure out what all the turns and strand count mean now. 

There's still one thing I was wondering about however.  In the instructions on canerod.com, he includes a very nice spreadsheet discussing typical diameters and areas.  And recommends for mono furled leaders, 2lb is a good place to start.  However, my question is determining the AMOUNT of strands.  I realize you'll want the butt section to be similar in diameter to your fly line, and the tippet end to be similar in diameter to the size tippet you'll be using. 

However, is diameter a good enough way to make sure it's strong enough?  Say I want to use thread, how should I go about determining the proper amount of strands to ensure its strong enough? 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:45:39 PM by JDP » Logged
Flue
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Posts: 1262


Debt is dumb, cash is king. -D.R.


« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 09:36:13 PM »

I, personally, haven't tested the theory, but theoretically, with 2lb mono with a 7/5/3 loop wrap you'll end up with 28lbs butt section and a 12lbs tip (once you fold in half you double your strength?).  I wouldn't worry to much about a mono leader not being strong enough, use the next weight mono.  4lb mono should double your diameters.  2 lb is .11mm where 4 lb is .22mm

Uni 6/0 thread has a breaking point of 1lb 13oz (no idea what the mm is for 6/0 lol)  Should give you a tippet that is little more than 1/2 (roughly) the strength of 2 lb mono, while being quite a bit smaller and lighter.

Uni Thread

If your chasing bass (and other warm water critters) I'd stick with mono, go thread if you chasing trout, softer presentation I'd wager.  But remake them each season, or maybe even twice a season...I would.  Unless your targeting musky, I doubt there is any reason to go above 2 lb mono for furled leaders...even then?Huh?

Another good read
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JDP
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Posts: 104


« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 10:03:30 PM »

Good reads thanks!  think I'm finally understanding this, when I'm home for spring break I'll try to make some and post my results!
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JDP
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Posts: 104


« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 11:08:32 PM »

I have a question that comes here-  in this link - http://www.flyanglersonline.com/articles/readerscast/2012/readerscast20120130_StevenMcGarthwaite.php

he uses a 13 1/2-12 1/2 - 11 loop sequence.

How can you have half of a loop in the loop sequence?  My thinking is that say you tie your leader material to a cup hook at the start and you're doing 3.5 loops.  you go down to the peg and back to the hook 3 times, then run the line down to the second peg.  My guess is its this length of line that runs past the 1st peg to the 2nd peg that is the half of a loop?

EDIT : Maybe you are using a different method of furling your leaders, but in your first reply you said you used a 7-5-3 taper which gives you a 14-10-6 taper, but in reality this would give you a 28-24-20-16-12 taper, since you have 2 sides of the leader that are furled together.  See the link I posted above- it has two sides.  


Deleted alot of my questions as I figured out most of them, however the question about half a loop still applies.

Also, 22 strands of 2lb mono gives you a cross sectional area extremely close to what a normal leader's butt section is, However this is a 44lb test butt section.  So My question is this: is it better to have a closer diameter/cross section to the fly line than to have the ~ breaking strength similar to a normal tapered leader?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 07:07:12 AM by JDP » Logged
Flue
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Posts: 1262


Debt is dumb, cash is king. -D.R.


« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 07:32:55 AM »

my math sucks and I was only counting one side of each strand loop

I like to think in terms of top and bottom on my jig.  The starting and ending hooks are at the top and the dowels are at the bottom   Each time I send the spool of thread or mono down, that's an increment of one.  I don't count the return. 

If you think about it, every section is going to be increments of a half loops.  If you count (7) when your thread hits the lower dowel you will end up with a 7 strands on one side and 6 on the other side of the dowel of your first section.  I usually count the bottom of the loop (dowel or hook).  So you your top section is 13 strands, the next is 9 (5 wraps) and bottom ends up with 3 strands.  Once you fold in have and "unwind" you have a staggered 26/18/6 leader.  It would seem like a jump down from 18 to 6 is massive, but because the leader is staggered, it's more like 26/22/18/15/9/6 (I think I counted that right).  It's pretty smooth and you won't even notice the taper unless you go looking for it. 

As for casting?  Like butter.  Even for a hack like myself who has fundamental issues to work out.  It's more difficult to get wind knots with the furled leader, but I have managed it a few times.  The leader will not make you a better caster, but they do roll out a lot smoother than a standard tapered leader.  The biggest plus, is they have zero memory.  Roll it off your reel or off a spool and it lays limp and straight.  No tendency to curl.  No stretching and straightening to do.  Put on tippet, fly and go.

How you spin it is up to you.  Some instructions say to clamp the bottom and spin each side until you lose 6 inches of length.  I grab a second set of hands (you will need two bodies to do it with out screwing it up) remove the termination side, unfold it so I've got one long bundle of strands, hang a 19mm socket near the middle.  Hook up the drill, let the socket sag about a foot and let'er rip.  once the socket has come up a foot (or so) I stand the whole thing up, keep tension on the whole thing (with out letting the socket spin) and fold.  Once folded, release the socket and allow it to furl.

If you let up on the tension at all and allow the leader to go slack before it has been furled you will end up with "bubbles" in your leader.  It's not trashed, it's just not aesthetically pleasing.





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JDP
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Posts: 104


« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 10:08:50 AM »

Ok cool thanks.  What about the question i had regarding the diameter of the butt/tippet sections and the strength?  For instance, if your butt has 22 strands of 2 pound monofilament, the cross sectional area is very close to the cross sectional area it should be to tie to a 6wt fly line, however thats a 44lb butt section, whereas most 0x-3x leaders I see have a 24-28 pound butt section.
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JDP
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Posts: 104


« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 12:07:14 PM »

Second question- have you ever tried using dyed mono for leaders?  I.e. something like this- http://www.cabelas.com/product/Fishing/Fishing-Line/Monofilament%7C/pc/104793480/c/104719680/sc/104457780/Stren-Original-LineHiVis-Gold-330-Yard/702134.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Ffishing-fishing-line-monofilament%2Fstren%2F_%2FN-1100384%2B1000004788%2FNe-1000004788%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104457780%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BMMcat104793480%253Bcat104719680%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104793480%3Bcat104719680%3Bcat104457780

I've heard of people using colored lines for the butt sections when tying up a traditional leader to serve as a strike indicator for nymphing, but when doing this as a furled leader, Im worried that the color may spook the fish?  Thoughts?
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Flue
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Debt is dumb, cash is king. -D.R.


« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 12:51:50 PM »

I dunno.  Red makes a really nice looking leader though. Cheesy

Could always use clear mono and sharpie the butt section some high visible color.  I don't know how visible colored mono is to a fish under water.  I think you have better odds "lining" the fish during a cast than spooking them with a colored leader 12 to 36 inches away from your fly.  

Can't answer your question on butt weight ratio to fly line question.  My only concern with the fly line to leader connection is that it be smooth enough not to catch on either debris or guides.

When using my 7wt for bass I use the 2 lb mono leader.  When using 5wt for trout (cause I don't have anything smaller) I used a 6/0 thread leader, or a standard tapered trout leader.   Any thought beyond that takes all the fun out of it. Sad

« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:11:30 PM by Flue » Logged
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